Stefan Küng wrote:
> If you don't know anything about what's going on in a program,
> then how can you believe that [...] it really doesn't do it?
I simply assume that if it has the decency to ask politely,
it's not going to turn 180 degress and fuck me over.
> > > If you don't open the settings dialog within seven days after first
> > > using TSVN, then yes. But I think in that case, it's your own fault.
> >
> > What what?
> >
> > If I don't open the settings dialog immediately after installing, and
> > then meticulously wade through all the options and try to figure out
> > whether one of them might be an "application bug" aka "phone home
> > feature", then it's my own fault?
> >
> > You *must* be kidding me.
>
> No, I'm not kidding.
C'mon. Surely, you must be?
> And now that feature is not only evil but an actual bug???
Yes, not in the meaning of "causing unintended operation", but meaning
"application bug" comparable with eg. "mail bug" in e-mails that phone
home.
> > I mean this combination:
> > * activates without specific user action [...] and
> > * transmits data [...] to headquarters
>
> If it's insignificant, then why does it bother you?
It bothers me because I find it extremely impolite for any application
to phone home without asking me first.
> > No, I'm arguing that phoning home without my consent is inherently evil.
>
> You have to difference the issues here. 'Phoning home' as you call it
> isn't by definition evil. It all depends on why you do it and what
> you're 'sending' home.
"phoning home" is not per definition evil, "phoning home without my
prior consent" is.
Oh, and it's my definition that counts, because I'm the user. You
have no say over my definitions of evil (nor rude) :-).
> Do you use a wireless phone?
Yes. I know that my cellular SP logs my physical whereabouts every
minute of the day, and that they so far has never deleted any of that
information.
I also know that this kind of information could be immensely useful,
for example for
* Parents wanting to know where their kids are
* A potential whole new industry of location-aware mobile games
* Checking on your girlfriend
.... Whatever ;).
I firmly believe that this information should be opened up to the
cellular user to do with as (s)he sees fit.
For example, I'd very much like to be able to select a bunch of
contacts in my phonebook and tick a flag that says "Allow these people
to know my whereabouts".
But I would *not* like anyone to have that information at their
fingertips without my consent.
I'm aware that I'll never make the cellular providers stop logging
this information. And maybe you could even argue that they have a
moral obligation to keep it around so law enforcement can check it
out.
But me being unable to stop them doesn't for one second mean that what
they're doing is right.
And neither does their actions make TortoiseSVN's behaviour any more
morally right.
> By your definition, all those phones are evil.
Sort of, yes.
> No, you misunderstood me. If I would disable the feature by default,
> then most likely those people not visiting the website regularly will
> not even know about the feature and therefore not turn it on. So then
> exactly those will never know about a new version.
Ah, ok.
Yes, of course it should be on by default.
No argument there.
> I never said that I don't want people to be able to deactivate the
> feature. I just want the feature to be on by default.
Ok, cool beans.
> Users already *can* opt out. There's a checkbox in the settings dialog.
I'm not going to go over the race condition wrt. "installation" vs.
"discovering the option" again.
> > The installer will need a description for the check box, so here's a
> > concrete suggestion:
> > "This is what we do; we poll to see if a new version is available once a week.
> > We collect no data from your PC.
> > The server will log a timestamp, your IP and some HTTP header
> > information, which is absolutely necessary from a security standpoint.
> >>From that information we can theoretically gather approximately how
> > many TSVN users there are as well as for approximately how long you've
> > had TSVN installed, but we don't make a habit of snooping around in
> > those log files, as there are usually better ways of finding out."
>
> Do you know that people don't read text in an installer? They never do.
Assuming that the text is overcomeable, if they don't, *then* it's their fault.
> I've never seen any app which provides that setting in the installer.
See recently posted screenshots.
(Ok, DirOpus actually installs; then activates the automatic updater;
and the automatic updater then starts out by asking the user whether
to schedule automatic updates before doing anything else. But the net
effect is the same; the race condition isn't there and the user has
been asked politely before any action was taken.)
> And IMHO that doesn't belong into an installer.
I hope you won't be too stubborn to accept patches anyway.
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Received on Wed Apr 12 22:30:42 2006