Molle Bestefich wrote:
>> We don't send *any* data home. So how's that controversial?
>
> As a regular user without the slightest idea of what goes on in TSVN
> code, I have no way of knowing that.
> Thus I retain that the polite thing to do is to ask me during installation.
If you don't know anything about what's going on in a program, then how
can you believe that if it asks you and you tell it not to that it
really doesn't do it?
Sure, with apps where I don't have the ability to check the sourcecode
about what it's doing, I'm also suspicious and have my firewall block it
when it connects to the internet. But I still don't consider it rude of
those apps to do that if they have somewhere an option to disable
whatever they're doing. I only would consider it rude if I couldn't
disable it. But having a feature enabled by default isn't rude. It's a
decision.
> There's a difference however which makes the status cache far less evil.
> If you don't like the status cache (even though it's obviously good
> for you), you can just uninstall TSVN and you're good.
>
> But if you don't like that TSVN has been phoning home for the last
> decade you've used it because you had not discovered the option that
> turns this behaviour off, there's no way of undoing what it has done.
> You can't poll out the information that's gathered in the log files in
> the evil TSVN headquarters (pun intended ;-)), however puny and
> insignificant those data may be from your point of view.
Don't forget all the logs we keep about you with the mails you send to
this list, the checkout you did of the TSVN repository, how many times
you visited our website, ...
(FYI: we don't have access to those logs. And people at tigris.org don't
go through those logs either to gather information about you. They only
use the logs if there's a problem and they try to find out why it happened.)
>>> you've put in the options dialog is in fact not an option at all -
>>> TSVN might well have phoned home before the time that you happen to
>>> reach the option dialog and find the check box.
>> If you don't open the settings dialog within seven days after first
>> using TSVN, then yes. But I think in that case, it's your own fault.
>
> What what?
>
> If I don't open the settings dialog immediately after installing, and
> then meticulously wade through all the options and try to figure out
> whether one of them might be an "application bug" aka "phone home
> feature", then it's my own fault?
>
> You *must* be kidding me.
No, I'm not kidding.
And now that feature is not only evil but an actual bug???
>> What do you mean with 'characteristics'?
>
> I mean this combination:
> * activates without specific user action (not counting 'installing
> tsvn' here) and
> * transmits (however insignificant amounts of) data to headquarters
If it's insignificant, then why does it bother you?
> You misunderstand me.
> I'm not afraid of giving TSVN HQ my IP address.
> *Obviously* you have that already.
[snip]
>
> No, I'm arguing that phoning home without my consent is inherently evil.
You have to difference the issues here. 'Phoning home' as you call it
isn't by definition evil. It all depends on why you do it and what
you're 'sending' home.
Do you use a wireless phone? By your definition, all those phones are
evil. Because they always 'phone home', without you knowing it. They
'phone home' to tell your provider where you are and that your phone is
on (the 'where you are' part is in which wireless 'cell' you're
currently in with your phone). It's even worse: if you're traveling, the
phone sends its ID and phone number to every cell you're passing by,
even if it doesn't belong to your provider but to any provider you might
not even know about.
>> Seriously: TSVN does *not* update itself automatically! It only *checks*
>> if there's a new version available and then *tells* the user about that.
>> The user still can choose not to use the new version.
>
> The point above was that you're afraid that users will never upgrade
> if you give them the possibility to opt-out from the "automatic
> update" (revised ed. "phone home") features in TortoiseSVN.
No, you misunderstood me. If I would disable the feature by default,
then most likely those people not visiting the website regularly will
not even know about the feature and therefore not turn it on. So then
exactly those will never know about a new version.
I never said that I don't want people to be able to deactivate the
feature. I just want the feature to be on by default.
>> I'd like to correct you, but I can't. I just don't know how I can
>> explain to you that a simple check for a new version is not evil.
>> Sorry, I really don't get it.
>
> Ok.
> But you wouldn't mind if your users had the ability to opt-out from
> the phone home feature?
Users already *can* opt out. There's a checkbox in the settings dialog.
> As an example, let's say that it's a check box and it has a tick in it
> per default.
See above.
> The installer will need a description for the check box, so here's a
> concrete suggestion:
> "This is what we do; we poll to see if a new version is available once a week.
> We collect no data from your PC.
> The server will log a timestamp, your IP and some HTTP header
> information, which is absolutely necessary from a security standpoint.
>>From that information we can theoretically gather approximately how
> many TSVN users there are as well as for approximately how long you've
> had TSVN installed, but we don't make a habit of snooping around in
> those log files, as there are usually better ways of finding out."
Do you know that people don't read text in an installer? They never do.
Just check the mailing list about people complaining that TSVN doesn't
recognize their working copies anymore.
And IMHO that doesn't belong into an installer. I've never seen any app
which provides that setting in the installer. Only if the app has a
separate application which will run on windows startup to check for
updates, then yes, some of those installers ask the user if he wants to
run that app every time windows starts up.
But I've never seen that in a 'normal' app.
Stefan
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Received on Wed Apr 12 22:03:07 2006