On 10/5/05, Thomas Hruska <thruska@cubiclesoft.com> wrote:
> Look, you've got a UI element that exhibits non-standard behavior. I've
> never done well with figuring out what to do with non-standard UI
> elements. What I was putting forth was a possible "standard" solution
> to the problem with a couple shortcuts to speed up the process to a "one
> click plus one hand pressing a couple keys" solution. You've shortcut
> the effort by removing the dialog. However, by doing so, it creates
> obvious user confusion. A number of people came out of the woodwork on
> this list on this issue - think about the thousands who AREN'T on the
> list and doing the same thing.
Why are you calling this an UI element with non-standard behaviour?
Have a look at the internet explorer and the URL combobox. Firefox has
the same too. So what's 'non-standard' about this?
> Colorful UIs have nothing to do with professional products. Well, it is
> _ideal_ to follow the XP icon style and themes, but that is only barely
> scratching the surface. The product should do the job too. Beyond
> that, though, is usability testing (literally sitting down with people
> who have never used the product [but think it is something they might
> use] and _silently_ watch them use the software), user interface design
If you have the time (and the people) to do that, then please go
ahead. I'm only one person currently working (coding) on this project,
I simply don't have the time for this.
> (my nitpickiness that's driving you crazy), user acceptance testing
> (purposely seeking out target markets and beta testing with a number of
> users from each market), and responding to user feedback with product
> updates. When you get past just "getting the job done" and start
> focusing on the latter stuff, then and ONLY then do you have the _start_
> of a professional product. There are a ton of products out there that
> claim to be professional but really aren't. I've even written some of
> them (sad but true).
First of all, I'd like to point out that I *never* just wanted to 'get
the job done' but always tried to make the UI as good as possible.
But what's really driving me crazy is that whatever I do, people
complain. It took several changes to almost every dialog in TSVN to
get it where we're now. Now you come along and complain again, and you
complain about things that I've previously had done as you suggest but
changed because of people complaining about exactly that.
So tell me, what the hell should I do? Change the UI twice every
month? Release three or four different versions of TSVN?
Just to make this clear: I'll never do that. So don't even suggest
something like that.
> > Definitely not. I really hate programs which think they can take up
> > the whole screen. And websites which automatically resize the browser
> > window to full screen immediately get on my blocked list or added to
> > my little script which modifies websites on the fly.
>
> I didn't say full screen. I said large enough to show as many data
> elements as the screen resolution allows. So, for a 640x480 monitor
> (yeah right - who has that?) the dialog will probably _shrink_ from a
> default size. For larger resolutions, the main list control is what
> defines the initial size (so that all elements can be seen).
Depending on the path size, this could lead to a fullscreen sized dialog.
> > And the URL you're committing to already *is* a read-only edit box and
> > not a static label.
>
> Really? I can't put the focus on it. It doesn't look like an edit box.
read-only edit boxes look exactly like any other normal label. But you
can select the text in it.
> If I can't put keyboard focus on it and it should be readable by a
> screen reader (e.g. JAWS), it violates 508 Compliance. Things like that
It doesn't have a tab-stop. But you can click on it and then there's a cursor.
And why should a screen reader not be able to read a label?
> mean the U.S. government and related organizations can't legally use
> TSVN...and I can't copy and paste it if I wanted to (for whatever
> bizarre reason - maybe documentation).
Well, they already do:
http://oms.ars.usda.gov/svn.html
> Microsoft has laid out specific design specifications for dialogs,
> menus, and other aspects of applications (don't ask me for links - the
> pages are scattered all over MSDN and I've just committed the content to
> memory because they are a pain to find). These are considered
> "standards" for designing and deploying Windows applications. The only
> reason I didn't specify that the "OK" button should have its underscore
> removed is because the edit box is set to "Want Return".
I know those. I've read them all. And if you do that, you'll notice
that even MS violates its own rules in that area with every new
program they release.
The "Want Return" doesn't work if the focus is on the edit box,
because the edit box itself consumes the return key. So the OK button
really needs a shortcut.
Just following guidelines without reason is not a good idea. We have
to check each guideline if it even makes sense for our own app. And if
it doesn't make sense, then we shouldn't implement that guideline.
Also, on XP, the shortcuts aren't visible anyway as long as you don't
hit the ALT key.
> Associating all static text with an alt-shortcut is required by 508
> Compliance. Microsoft recommends, among other reasons, for 508
> Compliance that the OK, Cancel, and Help buttons be left without
> underscores to make it possible to use those shortcuts elsewhere.
That's a requirement that's simply not possible to implement for some
apps. You only have 26 letters in the english alphabet - but sometimes
more controls.
> In case you don't know what 508 is, it is the U.S. Disability Act. It
> provides very specific guidelines for disabled persons (e.g. partially
> or fully blind persons) to navigate software packages. Typically 508
> compliant software has an accompanying statement that states what is
> compliant and what isn't and what efforts are being made to strive
> toward 508. The U.S. Federal government is required by law to have all
> software they use be 508 Compliant or they can end up in deep legal trouble.
Do you have a link where I can read those?
Stefan
--
___
oo // \\ "De Chelonian Mobile"
(_,\/ \_/ \ TortoiseSVN
\ \_/_\_/> The coolest Interface to (Sub)Version Control
/_/ \_\ http://tortoisesvn.tigris.org
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@tortoisesvn.tigris.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@tortoisesvn.tigris.org
Received on Wed Oct 5 14:04:10 2005